Defenses

[Tangled Web]

Ok so I know that my defenses were extremely valuable to me when growing up in the household we grew up in. I understand that. But how do you get past them now? Some of this stuff we are about say might not be very logical but logic doesn't really have much to do with defenses, defenses just happen automatically without any thought to them at all........That is the problem.
I am pretty sure I am not in danger when I am talking to my T, she has been supportive to us and listens to us and seems to be genuine about her feeling towards us.
So this is what happens when we are talking to her.............She will ask a question and we will try to answer it depending on how it makes us feel. If there are feelings that make us uncomfortable with that, we change the subject. She has told us many times that if we tell her we don't want to talk about something all we have to do is let her know. The problem with doing that is that is us basically telling her that something about that bothers us. And in doing that we are somehow showing her a “weakness” in us and giving her some kind of ammunition to use against us....even though we know she would probably never do that but those are thoughts...... So changing the subject does not do that. Only there is a problem with that because then we never can get to what is bothering us. I know it feels like we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Also........It is the same thing in telling someone what works for us and what doesn’t. How we work and what helps and what doesn’t. In doing that you are telling the person how they can hurt you or get you to feel things you try to avoid. It feels like we are being tricked for some reason so we keep those things hidden.
And another thing with that…..if they DO figure it out themselves, it shows us that they actually understand and they care because they would have had to work really hard to get there with us. And if they didn’t care they wouldn’t have made the effort. They would have proved it to us by showing us because they did it on their own. Words never really have meant much to us because people lie ALL the time and just tell you what you want to hear. But if they figure things out on their own about you, then that actually says something to us!

But we want the help and want to somehow get past all these defenses but have no idea how to do that when they happen automatically. It is easy to think that we could stop all this from happening but when we are knee deep in it, it is impossible to stop at this time.
It feels like there is a much bigger force behind all this and it is totally out of our control. And no matter how hard I try to gain control over this I can never get it.
Frustrated!!!!!!!!

[nats]

sounds very familiar. we do much the same and never found a solution. however, my impression is it's less about 'gaining control' of it than accepting it.

[MakersDozn]

(10-09-2013, 06:27 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: So this is what happens when we are talking to her.............She will ask a question and we will try to answer it depending on how it makes us feel. If there are feelings that make us uncomfortable with that, we change the subject. She has told us many times that if we tell her we don't want to talk about something all we have to do is let her know. The problem with doing that is that is us basically telling her that something about that bothers us. And in doing that we are somehow showing her a “weakness” in us and giving her some kind of ammunition to use against us....even though we know she would probably never do that but those are thoughts...... So changing the subject does not do that.

First of all, we hear your frustration and want to acknowledge your feelings.

We do have a question, though. Why is it that telling your T that you don't want to talk about something is showing her a "weakness," but changing the subject isn't? Isn't changing the subject also a way of telling her you don't want to talk about the original subject?

As we see it, both scenarios communicate the message that we don't want to talk about something, whether we state it directly or not. The only difference between the two is that in the first scenario, we're stating our needs, and in the second scenario, we aren't. And by stating our needs, we become more mindful of those needs.

What do you think?

MDs

[Tangled Web]

Well telling her you don't want to talk about something is saying it right up front and there is no misunderstanding that, but if you change the subject in a way that she does not catch on to then it is different. She might realize it much later on in the conversation but usually by that time the thoughts or train of thought is already lost.
This next part, I know even as I am thinking it doesn't make a lot of sense but if we tell her something we don't want to talk about it, it shows her our weakness.........it is like giving her access to our buttons.....you know the buttons people push to get to you.......we are basically pointing that out to her.....oh that is this button and if you push it this will happen or something like that. I don't know exactly how to describe it ............. there will be a reaction, and I know that is why we are therapy to help with those things and we should talk about those things but when we are in that moment that is NOT where our thinking goes. We go into invasion measures to protect us......it happens automatically and I wish I knew where the shut off switch was.
Does that make sense?

[MakersDozn]

We hear what you're saying, TW.

As we look back up the thread, we realize that we agree with what nats said. Working toward acceptance rather than control. It's easier said than done, of course. There are things that we have difficulty accepting, and we hang on to the old ways of dealing with these things until we're ready to take the risk of doing things differently.

MDs

[Tangled Web]

I guess I don't understand what acceptance and control have to do with this. Well I understand what control has to do with defenses and needing the control to control the defenses but the I don't understand the acceptance part. What is there to accept?

[MakersDozn]

To accept your need to control, as well as the uncomfortable feelings that make you want to change the subject in the first place. Once you accept, in all likelihood, you'll not feel the urge to change the subject.

Make sense?

MDs

[nats]

to accept that you have feelings that don't make sense, and others have feelings that don't make sense, and that you don't have to control them.

[Tangled Web]

I guess that does make sense now. Thanks for the clarification. You are right I don't know how to accept the feelings. I do try to gain control over them even when they are not mine to control. It is hard to accept things that don't make sense and feelings have never made any logical sense to me.

[nats]

feelings are reactions to stimula, internal and external. they are not supposed to be logical. our feelings cannot be bound by the logical or illogical in the way our thinking is supposed to be (and since our thinking is always coloured by feelings, even complete neutrality and logic in our thinking is unattainable). this is being human, it's neither good nor bad, but simply how we all are .

[MakersDozn]

(10-18-2013, 12:52 PM)nats Wrote: feelings are reactions to stimula, internal and external. they are not supposed to be logical. our feelings cannot be bound by the logical or illogical in the way our thinking is supposed to be (and since our thinking is always coloured by feelings, even complete neutrality and logic in our thinking is unattainable). this is being human, it's neither good nor bad, but simply how we all are .

Great post, nats. So true.

MDs