when to give up on T..?

[nats]

we've been in T for several years now. dealing with bits and pieces of daily stuff but not gone deep into anything. we tried in the early days but didnt feel like it did any good.

feels like a lot of time and effort just to pay to talk to someone..

ever more ready to give up and accept we're just not getting anywhere...

when is it OK to give up?

[Tangled Web]

Hi nats. I have felt the same way you have for sometime now actually. I have only been seeing my T for a few years though. almost 4 to be exact. First off I was wondering if you could clarify something for me.....when you say when is it ok to give up.......do you mean with your current therapist or in therapy in general? I think that depends totally on what you want and how you want to live your life.
What I have been learning recently is that Therapy is what I put into it (which hasn't been much lately) and it is hard work for me to do if that is what I want. I still haven't decided if it is what I want. So I am coasting.

Maybe you need to decide what it is you want also. And maybe it didn't work in the beginning because you weren't ready and didn't have a trusting relationship with your T built yet. There are alot of maybes here but that is because I don't know much of your history or your journey.
Your T might not be the one to do the kind of work you need to do.

I think it is ok to give up on T but not on yourself. I believe you can heal......maybe not by doing therapy but by doing something else. I think we all need to strive for something better....that is what dreams and hopes are made from!

So I guess I don't really have an answer for you but I will sit here with you while you try to figure it out and listen.
Tangled

[mosaic]

that's a question that only yous can answer - i think it's something no one can answer for someone else.

have you decided that it's not worth trying to delve deeper now (as opposed to the early days)?

does t help you with the things you are talking about?

would taking a sabbatical from t be helpful (rather than giving up entirely)?

we hear your frustration... wish we could give you a great succint answer.

[nats]

thanks TW and mosaic.

it's exactly as you described - we're coasting and we know it - we've been w/ this T about 4yrs and happy to talk with her about routine stuff but just don't feel like she can help with whatever would be deeper (not sure what that would be nor whether its her or us, just feel like we've done all we can do at this point with this T).

we've stuck wth her this long b/c we could afford her and felt like we 'should be in T' but that reasoning doesn't seem good enough to stay at something that we're just not ready to do more than coast in. Realised that to keep everything going professionally etc takes a huge amount of energy that we then don't have to invest in challenging selves in T. I guess just looking for any excuse to take an indefinite break. Just feels like something we do as a habit but aren't really seeing any changes/improvements - obviously, since we're not putting effort in either. maybe we're just not any good at the T process.

we read here about people who really miss their Ts when they're gone. we like our T but we're happy to have a break when she's gone. We just aren't attached to her or trusting - which is one of our issues that seems to have gotten worse rather than better with the passage of time...

feels like rambling instead of answering your questions. we don't want to give up on ourselves but we've not managed to deal with any of the major issues we started T for - not a single one. mainly we've just come to accept that this is the way things are. most of us are not bad people, but doesn't seem like the T process is helping us become better...

[nats]

(08-30-2012, 09:50 PM)mosaic Wrote: have you decided that it's not worth trying to delve deeper now (as opposed to the early days)?

still secretly feel its worth it, just that its totally impossible. we'll never have a clearer picture of anything and we just don't know how to delve deeper..

(08-30-2012, 09:50 PM)mosaic Wrote: does t help you with the things you are talking about?

would taking a sabbatical from t be helpful (rather than giving up entirely)?

really don't know to be honest... would like to say its just this T, but its probably not... still just don't know what we're supposed to be doing in T. HOW do you go deeper?

[Tangled Web]

(08-31-2012, 09:32 AM)nats Wrote: thanks TW and mosaic.

it's exactly as you described - we're coasting and we know it - we've been w/ this T about 4yrs and happy to talk with her about routine stuff but just don't feel like she can help with whatever would be deeper (not sure what that would be nor whether its her or us, just feel like we've done all we can do at this point with this T).

we've stuck wth her this long b/c we could afford her and felt like we 'should be in T' but that reasoning doesn't seem good enough to stay at something that we're just not ready to do more than coast in. Realised that to keep everything going professionally etc takes a huge amount of energy that we then don't have to invest in challenging selves in T. I guess just looking for any excuse to take an indefinite break. Just feels like something we do as a habit but aren't really seeing any changes/improvements - obviously, since we're not putting effort in either. maybe we're just not any good at the T process.

we read here about people who really miss their Ts when they're gone. we like our T but we're happy to have a break when she's gone. We just aren't attached to her or trusting - which is one of our issues that seems to have gotten worse rather than better with the passage of time...

feels like rambling instead of answering your questions. we don't want to give up on ourselves but we've not managed to deal with any of the major issues we started T for - not a single one. mainly we've just come to accept that this is the way things are. most of us are not bad people, but doesn't seem like the T process is helping us become better...

Hi nats. I can totally relate to alot of what you are saying here! I am struggling with trying to find a balance with how much energy I give at work and how much energy I leave to work on myself. That balance has never been an easy one! Challenging ourselves does take ALOT of energy! When you say........
I guess just looking for any excuse to take an indefinite break. Just feels like something we do as a habit but aren't really seeing any changes/improvements - obviously, since we're not putting effort in either. maybe we're just not any good at the T process. I have been there recently also. Looking at everything just to find an excuse to stop T.....and trust me I have found alot of them! But still I go out of habit, like you said or because I think I need to be in T......(but I am starting to realize it is true) Not being good at the T process is totally understandable. It is so confusing and I don't think it is something we need to do well! We need to be taught how to do T and what the process actually means! IMO. I have told my T many times that if I hear that word one more time "process" I thought I was going to scream! Especially since it didnt make any sense to me what she was talking about! And to be honest I am still not sure if I do now. It is a huge learning curve! and is very frustrating.

we read here about people who really miss their Ts when they're gone. we like our T but we're happy to have a break when she's gone. We just aren't attached to her or trusting - which is one of our issues that seems to have gotten worse rather than better with the passage of time... I am not one of those people either. I am glad when my T goes away also. I welcome the break. For me it isn't about trusting her because I think I do trust her (more than anyone else in my life) but I keep my distance and don't become attached to her either. She keeps very good boundaries and I do everything I can to stay as far away from breaking them or challenging them in any way. But I do believe that you need to build the trust with your T before you go deeper into things. Your T might surprise you and be there for you!


we've not managed to deal with any of the major issues we started T for - not a single one. Maybe it would help if you made a list of what they are and take it to your T...... and ask her to help you deal with them and be straight up with them.....tell them how you feel and how you have no idea how to get there. mainly we've just come to accept that this is the way things are. I have said this many times to myselves and also my T and I truly believe that this ISN"T the way things should be. Have no idea how to change it really but I know if I keep accepting it things will NEVER change for me.......Just a thought.

doesn't seem like the T process is helping us become better... Well from what I just learned this week is that you need to make yourself become better with the guidance of your T. I truly thought (which I wasn't aware of until recently) that all I had to do was tell parts on my story to my T and then she would be able to heal me. That is what I thought this therapy process meant and then I even thought that the reason I wasn't healed yet was because I hadn't told her enough about my life yet. I don't know what I expected.....like I know she doesn't have this magic wand or anything but I thought she would give me this profound advice that would just heal me. BOY was I wrong. 4 years I have been waiting..........now I know why. I couldnt put it into words before.....I know that probably sounds very foolish and stupid but it is true. I need to work on myself, I need to put the time and energy into doing that and believe that things can change (which I don't think they can right now, but hoping they will) so I guess it is time to stop coasting so much and start looking at things.......I wish I knew what that would look like......
you asked mosiac how to go deep...........I think part of it is by letting go of some of your control over everything. Just a hunch, but that is where i would start.

I think this is a very valuable conversation and want to thank you so much for starting it!
Here listening.........

[The People]

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote:

(08-31-2012, 09:32 AM)nats Wrote: thanks TW and mosaic.

it's exactly as you described - we're coasting and we know it - we've been w/ this T about 4yrs and happy to talk with her about routine stuff but just don't feel like she can help with whatever would be deeper (not sure what that would be nor whether its her or us, just feel like we've done all we can do at this point with this T).

we've stuck wth her this long b/c we could afford her and felt like we 'should be in T' but that reasoning doesn't seem good enough to stay at something that we're just not ready to do more than coast in. Realised that to keep everything going professionally etc takes a huge amount of energy that we then don't have to invest in challenging selves in T. I guess just looking for any excuse to take an indefinite break. Just feels like something we do as a habit but aren't really seeing any changes/improvements - obviously, since we're not putting effort in either. maybe we're just not any good at the T process.

we read here about people who really miss their Ts when they're gone. we like our T but we're happy to have a break when she's gone. We just aren't attached to her or trusting - which is one of our issues that seems to have gotten worse rather than better with the passage of time...

feels like rambling instead of answering your questions. we don't want to give up on ourselves but we've not managed to deal with any of the major issues we started T for - not a single one. mainly we've just come to accept that this is the way things are. most of us are not bad people, but doesn't seem like the T process is helping us become better...

Hi nats. I can totally relate to alot of what you are saying here! I am struggling with trying to find a balance with how much energy I give at work and how much energy I leave to work on myself. That balance has never been an easy one! Challenging ourselves does take ALOT of energy! When you say........
I guess just looking for any excuse to take an indefinite break. Just feels like something we do as a habit but aren't really seeing any changes/improvements - obviously, since we're not putting effort in either. maybe we're just not any good at the T process. I have been there recently also. Looking at everything just to find an excuse to stop T.....and trust me I have found alot of them! But still I go out of habit, like you said or because I think I need to be in T......(but I am starting to realize it is true) Not being good at the T process is totally understandable. It is so confusing and I don't think it is something we need to do well! We need to be taught how to do T and what the process actually means! IMO. I have told my T many times that if I hear that word one more time "process" I thought I was going to scream! Especially since it didnt make any sense to me what she was talking about! And to be honest I am still not sure if I do now. It is a huge learning curve! and is very frustrating.

we read here about people who really miss their Ts when they're gone. we like our T but we're happy to have a break when she's gone. We just aren't attached to her or trusting - which is one of our issues that seems to have gotten worse rather than better with the passage of time... I am not one of those people either. I am glad when my T goes away also. I welcome the break. For me it isn't about trusting her because I think I do trust her (more than anyone else in my life) but I keep my distance and don't become attached to her either. She keeps very good boundaries and I do everything I can to stay as far away from breaking them or challenging them in any way. But I do believe that you need to build the trust with your T before you go deeper into things. Your T might surprise you and be there for you!


we've not managed to deal with any of the major issues we started T for - not a single one. Maybe it would help if you made a list of what they are and take it to your T...... and ask her to help you deal with them and be straight up with them.....tell them how you feel and how you have no idea how to get there. mainly we've just come to accept that this is the way things are. I have said this many times to myselves and also my T and I truly believe that this ISN"T the way things should be. Have no idea how to change it really but I know if I keep accepting it things will NEVER change for me.......Just a thought.

doesn't seem like the T process is helping us become better... Well from what I just learned this week is that you need to make yourself become better with the guidance of your T. I truly thought (which I wasn't aware of until recently) that all I had to do was tell parts on my story to my T and then she would be able to heal me. That is what I thought this therapy process meant and then I even thought that the reason I wasn't healed yet was because I hadn't told her enough about my life yet. I don't know what I expected.....like I know she doesn't have this magic wand or anything but I thought she would give me this profound advice that would just heal me. BOY was I wrong. 4 years I have been waiting..........now I know why. I couldnt put it into words before.....I know that probably sounds very foolish and stupid but it is true. I need to work on myself, I need to put the time and energy into doing that and believe that things can change (which I don't think they can right now, but hoping they will) so I guess it is time to stop coasting so much and start looking at things.......I wish I knew what that would look like......
you asked mosiac how to go deep...........I think part of it is by letting go of some of your control over everything. Just a hunch, but that is where i would start.

I think this is a very valuable conversation and want to thank you so much for starting it!
Here listening.........

[The People]

We have been through several Ts as we fgure we have been at this now for 2 1/2 decades. A few have been very good, some have barely passed muster and then there are those who did more harm than good. That is the risk that you take. I never stayed with the bad ones except for the first one. I never knew that I was allowed to say "this isn't working". Used to be the same with doctors. Thankfully she moved away.

I didn't talk at all. They tried everything. One of them said "I don't know how to help you which was a sign of wisdom although I didn''t take it that way; felt abandoned. If more therapists did this, recognized heir limits, more of us would move ahead further.

Some things to ask yourself are
- Do you trust this T? Without trust there is nothing to build a relationship on. After all of this time you should know if there is a sense of trust; or if it is at least starting. In a healthy relationship it doesn't come overnight but it has to be there before anything else works.
- Does s/he understand DID? And I don't mean she took a class on it or read some books.
- Does s/he try to use alernatives to talking to help you get below the surface? Drawing, playroom, stuffies for the littles?
- Do you correspond with her between sessions? I don't mean calling her every day but do you ever try writing or drawing something that comes up when you are not there?

I could go on but the bottom line is, what keeps you there? And what is plan B if this doesn't work (only you can decide that)

Walking away from a T is really scary. I had one T who told me that I would never find what I was looking for if I walked away from her (standard hours, ability to write any tie I wanted and call in an emergency) She had a play room. If I called to contract she would not just say OK she would give me some suggestions on how to refocus over the weekend so that I was not focused on self destruction.

Write down what this T provides you. And write down what you want from a T (maybe do second one first). See if they compare. It is your call.

[nats]

- Do you trust this T? We trust her to be reliable and do what she agrees to. we don't trust her to understand what feels important to us.

- Does s/he understand DID? Sometimes she seems to sort of.

- Does s/he try to use alernatives to talking to help you get below the surface? we used to email and found that much better, but it probably wasn't fair to expect her to read it all and we never talked about it and she seemed to take it as a positive step when we stopped. so we didn't do it anymore.

- Do you correspond with her between sessions? we used to but there doesn't seem any reason to. we dont really feel like there is anything to talk about that is important enough to discuss outside sessions that we could explain in a way she would understand. she's got very good boundaries about session times etc, so we'd rather not.

I could go on but the bottom line is, what keeps you there? what keeps us there is a combination of 'this is as good as it gets/we can afford' and optimism that someday by magic all this venting about daily life b/c we know she'll understand what we're talking about and its easy, will accomplish something meaningfully therapeutic. sounds dumb when its broken down like this, but hope springs eternal..

what is plan B if this doesn't work (only you can decide that). to give up, indefinitely. we just really don't want to embark on a new T search..

[nats]

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: Looking at everything just to find an excuse to stop T.....and trust me I have found alot of them! But still I go out of habit, like you said or because I think I need to be in T......(but I am starting to realize it is true)

for me, i don't need T. I can cope with everything in daily life I need to. the stuff i can't cope with doesn't exist for me so i can ignore it. the others need some help and maybe even support but they have decided it is a waste of time trying to communicate.

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: But I do believe that you need to build the trust with your T before you go deeper into things. Your T might surprise you and be there for you!

yes, she does surprise us sometimes but usually not.

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: Maybe it would help if you made a list of what they are and take it to your T...... and ask her to help you deal with them and be straight up with them.....

yes, we did. but it still requires us to resolve them. not sure what T is supposed to do to help.

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: I know if I keep accepting it things will NEVER change for me.......Just a thought.

Yes, and then what...? HOW do you change?

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: I need to work on myself, I need to put the time and energy into doing that and believe that things can change (which I don't think they can right now, but hoping they will) so I guess it is time to stop coasting so much and start looking at things.......I wish I knew what that would look like......

and i've realised that we have a limited amount of time/energy and if its spent on really working in T its not spent paying the mortgage and putting food on the table. Career and child come first. this is probably the key factor. we used to think we could do it all - we can, but when we do it all we don't do any of it well.

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: you asked mosiac how to go deep...........I think part of it is by letting go of some of your control over everything. Just a hunch, but that is where i would start.

can you explain? not sure what we're controlling for. do you mean not censor what we say in T or something else?

thanks for taking so much time to respond. feel like its giving up to stop, but feel like its wasting time to continue..

[Tangled Web]

(09-04-2012, 06:01 PM)nats Wrote:

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: Looking at everything just to find an excuse to stop T.....and trust me I have found alot of them! But still I go out of habit, like you said or because I think I need to be in T......(but I am starting to realize it is true)

for me, i don't need T. I can cope with everything in daily life I need to. the stuff i can't cope with doesn't exist for me so i can ignore it. the others need some help and maybe even support but they have decided it is a waste of time trying to communicate.

I can cope with everything in daily life also and don't need T to do that. My T is always telling me that I function very well and I know I do......but it doesn't mean I am happy. I can ignor things to and do so ALL the time. Do the others not feel heard? Is that why they decided it is a waste of time to try and communicate?

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: But I do believe that you need to build the trust with your T before you go deeper into things. Your T might surprise you and be there for you!

yes, she does surprise us sometimes but usually not.

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: Maybe it would help if you made a list of what they are and take it to your T...... and ask her to help you deal with them and be straight up with them.....

yes, we did. but it still requires us to resolve them. not sure what T is supposed to do to help.

I am not sure I have the answer to this one either. I know the responsibility always comes back on us to resolve things but maybe a T is there as a guide. To witness it with you, to see and hear everything and support you through it. That is what I think maybe.....hopefully.......and to show you that this time you don't have to do it alone.

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: I know if I keep accepting it things will NEVER change for me.......Just a thought.

Yes, and then what...? HOW do you change?

Now I continually ask this question! The best I know how to explain it or how I see it is.....you need to go through it again ONLY this time when you come out the other side the ending changes. You realize it wasn't your fault, that you can and will put the responsibility on the people who it belongs to. You grieve your losses. And when you come out of it and the ending has changed you will see the scars that remain and they will make you sad but not the sadness they once held, it will be different. As you go through your story again you will learn new things that will help make the journey easier. Everyone needs to have voice and needs to be able speak and tell their story. That is what I think on HOW to do it, if I were to put it into my own words.

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: I need to work on myself, I need to put the time and energy into doing that and believe that things can change (which I don't think they can right now, but hoping they will) so I guess it is time to stop coasting so much and start looking at things.......I wish I knew what that would look like......

and i've realised that we have a limited amount of time/energy and if its spent on really working in T its not spent paying the mortgage and putting food on the table. Career and child come first. this is probably the key factor. we used to think we could do it all - we can, but when we do it all we don't do any of it well.

I understand and those things are very important. Career and child should come first and finding that balance on where you fit in is never easy! But you still need to fit in there somewhere.....

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: you asked mosiac how to go deep...........I think part of it is by letting go of some of your control over everything. Just a hunch, but that is where i would start.

can you explain? not sure what we're controlling for. do you mean not censor what we say in T or something else?

What I mean is that for me in order to go deep......I have to let go of some of my control. You see I have to be focused all the time at work and in complete control of myself. I am a nurse......people trust me with their lives. So if I were to go deep I would have to go inside to look at the deep things or let someone from inside get closer to the surface that holds those things and in order to do I would have to allow that, which is giving up some of my control. I must admit I don't do this often at all......it scares me. and I end up thinking or convincing myself that why should I go looking for trouble when I know it will find me all on its own.......haven't found a way around that one yet.
But we control many many things.........it might be censoring to your T, it might be what you feel or how you feel it or don't feel it, lots and lots of things.

thanks for taking so much time to respond. feel like its giving up to stop, but feel like its wasting time to continue..

I can understand that feeling. Maybe you just need to give yourself permission to do that for right now in your life this is where you are at and it is ok. I do that when everytime I start to coast in T. I give myself permission to do it and when I start to get frustrated that I am not making any progress and I get tired of wasting my money....I ask myself....what do I really want and I want to happy, truly happy inside my core and then I look at how I can get there and what I have to do to get there......which is actually where I am at right now and I make a committment to T again. And try again with another piece or with the same piece as before.
I hope some of this was helpful.....and if not.....I am still here listening, sitting with you
Tangled

[Tangled Web]

didnt mean for everything to turn green that
sorry....i was trying to make it easier to read now it just made it harder I think

[Dreamscapes Collectives]

(09-04-2012, 06:01 PM)nats Wrote:

(08-31-2012, 05:30 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: I know if I keep accepting it things will NEVER change for me.......Just a thought.

Yes, and then what...? HOW do you change?

I know I haven't read all the way through the thread so if this got addressed I apologize.

This question caught our eye because we both know how to change and don't know how to change. If it's something specific we can work on it.

For example, some years ago we realized that we didn't make good friends and we wanted to become better friends. So we picked a couple of the friends we trusted and told them what we were thinking about and asked if they could help out. They helped us to understand some things that we didn't and they would point out when we did things that were inconsiderate. In a nice way.

That's what they did. What we had to do was take in that information and start trying to apply it. It started with us just trying to catch and recognize the behaviours before they were pointed out to us. Once we could do that we had to figure out a different way to react. So we asked our friends about what other ways could we react instead of the ways we had been. Then we used that information to slowly start to alter how we acted.

It took time. And it was really hard sometimes. But we managed to change the things we didn't like about how we acted in regards to our friends.

Maybe that's what your T could do. Give you ideas about how to do something. Like, maybe pick one thing you want to change. Then maybe tell your T, "This is something I want to change but I don't know how, do you have any suggestions?". Then, if she gives you good suggestions you understand and that make sense to you, you can take those and figure out how to apply them.

I don't know if this helps, but it's something we thought when we saw your question on how to change.

realms people

[orek]

Huh, I thought we had weighed in on this before, but I don't see anything. So quick reply here for now:

It sounds to me as if you just don't have a good therapy fit. If she lets you talk about mundane things week after week for four years, then there's just no "there there" for that therapy, imo. We find we have a stubborn belief in the power of therapy (probably because our very first one was great, but we had to move after just a few months -- or was it a year? -- with her). And we've tried many times and had okay Ts, harmful Ts, and ineffective ones. Our current one is a tremendous trauma therapist, and we have gone further and deeper with her than we ever have before. It's not just talking about certain things, though that, too. The relationship itself is reparative and fixes some deep emotional relational issues, all within the safe structure of the therapy holding environment. Shite, this sounds like a textbook.

The long and short: we've changed and healed some deep emotional stuff from that relationship and have been able to incorporate a lot of her attitude dealings, connection with me/us, which allows me to start turning that same stuff inward, nurturing ourselves. Also, she's been a witness to lots of insider pain and secrets and horror, which freed them from their private hell of unshared pain and fear of judgment. It took a long time to develop the trust and safety--insiders didn't come out directly in therapy till after three years and we've been with her seven now--but she knows what she's doing and has long experience with PTSD (which, imo, is more important than lots of DID experience, provided she's open to it and understand it, which she is and does, because I had a "DID expert" who was too fascinated with the disorder and felt too "important" treating it, which basically made us sicker, not better.) She's retiring in a year, which is throwing us for a loop, but we've come far with her (just not to the other side of the gauntlet and probably can't in a year).

Okay, this is long enough. Long/short: not working, not worth it, imo. You'll know when it's working. Don't assume you're doing something wrong. Maybe she is. Or maybe it''s just not a good fit. Whatever it is, I can hear your frustration and maybe discouragement, and I'm sorry it's not working better and is so hard. Again, don't beat yourself up. Take care--orek

[nats]

(10-30-2012, 12:03 AM)orek Wrote: It sounds to me as if you just don't have a good therapy fit. If she lets you talk about mundane things week after week for four years, then there's just no "there there" for that therapy, imo.

thanks orek. that's exactly what it feels like. we've gone on for months and years barely engaged in T. when we have engaged results were mixed at best. right intentions on her part, but 'not a good fit' sounds right.