Having difficulty figuring this one out....

[Tangled Web]

I am not sure I will be able to explain this right but I have been restling with this for a couple a weeks now and still have not gained any ground on figuring it out.

The last time I saw my T she had said something to me.....
We were talking about my father and the time I had confronted him about he did to me. I was 16 at the time and my dad and I got into a huge fight and he had told me that I was no longer his daughter to him. 2 years later I saw him again and did something very awful, shameful.

My T had said well now it makes sense why I did what I did. It was because I wanted his love back and that was the only way I knew and that is what I thought was love.
Well I have never made that connection and it shocked and terrified me that she did.

The thing that is bothering though (besides what I wrote above) is that it reminded me of what I read in books about victims of abuse and the things they do because of the abuse. I have never thought of myself of one of "those" people. I have never thought of myself as a victim. NEVER! I have always seen myself as a survivor. I survived and that was all that mattered. To me being a victim was weak, fragile, easily broken. I know there are many different meanings of the word VICTIM for individuals and I guess that was how I saw it.....the meaning of the word I mean. So because I survived I considered myself a survivor and would/actually still do get really pissed off when someone calls me a victim.
For the first time in my life I am starting to see myself as a victim ONLY now the word is starting to take on a new meaning to it. (sometimes) And the internal struggle is unbelievable inside. And what makes it harder is trying to put the pieces together when the two incidents I have been talking about involve 2 totally different people inside of me that are on total oppisite ends of the spectrum.

So I don't know what to do about this. It just keeps rolling around in my head repeatedly and going back and forth.

If this post has offended anyone, I am sorry. These are MY feelings ONLY in regard to myself.......it does not apply to how I see others what so ever. I just had to say that or else I was going to delete the whole post.

And I keep thinking.....why is this such a big deal and why can't I just let it go.....like really when it comes down to it who cares! VICTIM/SURVIVOR could mean the same thing to some people BUT it is a huge deal for some reason inside of me and I can't push this down or make this go away, which is very frustrating because it just rolls around in my head with absolutely no solution even in sight. I don't even know where to start to find one.
Do I have to become a victim and accept myself as such before I can be a survivor?????? I don't think so......I think everyone is a survivor if they actually made it through any kind of abuse ALIVE!!!!!
The thing is that I think this has somehow got tangled into everything else like......me seeing that maybe it was that bad.........or if I am like those people who are in the books I read then I was a victim! ............That I am not making this all up and this really did happen to me.......... Finding some kind of acceptance maybe on a level that has gone deeper than it ever has. That maybe these are NOT just "stories" I hear from the others inside.....that THIS might have ACTUALLY happened to my body and the others......
I don't know...........I just don't know..........I wish I could make this fit somehow together but it just doesn't feel right yet....it just doesn't fit and it is like I am missing something and I can't put it together.

Any ways thanks for listening.
Tangled Web

[orek]

(08-13-2012, 10:45 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: I am not sure I will be able to explain this right but I have been restling with this for a couple a weeks now and still have not gained any ground on figuring it out.

The last time I saw my T she had said something to me.....
We were talking about my father and the time I had confronted him about he did to me. I was 16 at the time and my dad and I got into a huge fight and he had told me that I was no longer his daughter to him. 2 years later I saw him again and did something very awful, shameful.

My T had said well now it makes sense why I did what I did. It was because I wanted his love back and that was the only way I knew and that is what I thought was love.
Well I have never made that connection and it shocked and terrified me that she did.

The thing that is bothering though (besides what I wrote above) is that it reminded me of what I read in books about victims of abuse and the things they do because of the abuse. I have never thought of myself of one of "those" people. I have never thought of myself as a victim. NEVER! I have always seen myself as a survivor. I survived and that was all that mattered. To me being a victim was weak, fragile, easily broken. I know there are many different meanings of the word VICTIM for individuals and I guess that was how I saw it.....the meaning of the word I mean. So because I survived I considered myself a survivor and would/actually still do get really pissed off when someone calls me a victim.
For the first time in my life I am starting to see myself as a victim ONLY now the word is starting to take on a new meaning to it. (sometimes) And the internal struggle is unbelievable inside. And what makes it harder is trying to put the pieces together when the two incidents I have been talking about involve 2 totally different people inside of me that are on total oppisite ends of the spectrum.

So I don't know what to do about this. It just keeps rolling around in my head repeatedly and going back and forth.

If this post has offended anyone, I am sorry. These are MY feelings ONLY in regard to myself.......it does not apply to how I see others what so ever. I just had to say that or else I was going to delete the whole post.

And I keep thinking.....why is this such a big deal and why can't I just let it go.....like really when it comes down to it who cares! VICTIM/SURVIVOR could mean the same thing to some people BUT it is a huge deal for some reason inside of me and I can't push this down or make this go away, which is very frustrating because it just rolls around in my head with absolutely no solution even in sight. I don't even know where to start to find one.
Do I have to become a victim and accept myself as such before I can be a survivor?????? I don't think so......I think everyone is a survivor if they actually made it through any kind of abuse ALIVE!!!!!
The thing is that I think this has somehow got tangled into everything else like......me seeing that maybe it was that bad.........or if I am like those people who are in the books I read then I was a victim! ............That I am not making this all up and this really did happen to me.......... Finding some kind of acceptance maybe on a level that has gone deeper than it ever has. That maybe these are NOT just "stories" I hear from the others inside.....that THIS might have ACTUALLY happened to my body and the others......
I don't know...........I just don't know..........I wish I could make this fit somehow together but it just doesn't feel right yet....it just doesn't fit and it is like I am missing something and I can't put it together.

Any ways thanks for listening.
Tangled Web

[orek]

Think I accidentally hit "post" before writing my reply. Just a disclaimer.

Here's another: I admit I'm more vulnerable tonight than maybe at other times. But we're not really good ones to respond. We're the opposite, not necessarily using the words "victim" or "survivor" since we didn't realize there was a good reason for the way we were, but we've always seen ourselves as weak, deficient somehow, fragile, shamefully so. I guess seeing the connection between the abuse and how we are today, whatever that translates to, is always a shocker. For you it's to realize your fragility. For us, the fact that ours has a reason behind it. And every flavor in between.

Personally, I'm sick of all of it, whichever way we're approaching it. Bad weekend, what with my sister's Bday--she would have been 60 on Saturday were she still with us--then my mom's 86th on Sunday, which we spent with her just fine, but. Ah, words don't do it, do they?

Hang in there. Any awareness is a step foreward, so they tell us.

[Tangled Web]

Do you think it is me realizing my fragility? WOW now that puts a different spin on it, another thing to think about....that might be IT....maybe.....umph....
I am sorry about the loss of your sister. It is hard to lose to someone/family member.
Tangled

[mosaic]

hi TW,

it's an interesting distinction between victim and survivor. sometimes to us it seems to be a matter of semantics - and other times we feel the difference - that victim means something different from survivor.

out of curiosity, i looked up the definition of victim: one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent

it doesn't say anything about a victim being necessarily weak or fragile.

i think over the years our understandable need to focus on the fact that we are survivors has done a disservice to the actual meaning of the concept that we were also victims of horribe circumstances. and the things that happened were not our fault. we are victims who survived.

this is probably just me - i feel like sometimes if too much of a difference is made between victim and survivor it implies that somehow the victim is to blame for what happened and a survivor is not. if that is true, it would be understandable why you might recoil at the thought that you were a victim.

i'm rambling... anyway, we are listening

[Tangled Web]

Hi Mosaic. Now that fits to a degree. In my house (childhood) a victim was ALWAYS to blame for what had happened. I never wanted to look at being a victim because I never wanted to see that it was my fault.......I never talk about why I think it my fault either and when you look at yourself as a survivor....it was almost like you didn't have to........if that makes any sense. In my eyes people looked at you differently also, like you were stronger. So I never get into the feelings of guilt and shame that are stuffed deep inside. They represent being a victim and it was always more important to prove to people how strong you are so you never showed them any weakness. I think I am rambling now.......I see my T today and wonder if she will understand.........
Tangled

[Tangled Web]

Another piece just came into place for me.........My T who I thought was pretty clueless to some things appears to know more than I thought she did and with me figuring this out or seeing it......has made her into a threat to me. Does that make sense?

[mosaic]

(08-14-2012, 10:56 AM)Tangled Web Wrote: Another piece just came into place for me.........My T who I thought was pretty clueless to some things appears to know more than I thought she did and with me figuring this out or seeing it......has made her into a threat to me. Does that make sense?

a threat because your T may be the impetus for learning more about yourself and your history? or because she is asking you to look at things that are scary?

[Tangled Web]

I think it is more the first one than the second..........The learning about myself AND my history is contradicting everything I built the life I live now.......And it threatens the foundations.

[mosaic]

maybe you'll be able to find out that the foundations really are more solid than you think - and that your history etc are really part of those foundations.

listening and sitting with you. you're very courageous

[Tangled Web]

Why do you say I am very courageous? What makes you think so? Just curious.....

I just got home from T and actually foundations was the discussion for today. I am going to make a list of what the "rules" "mesages" "beliefs" the foundations I have inside were built on. And then take it back to T and decide which ones are "healthy" and true and which ones are not. It was a productive session today. I learned things........one of them being that is much easier to blame myself than my dad........if I were to blame him then it feels like everything I have built my life on has been a lie......the foundations of lies.......

[mosaic]

to face the issues you are facing takes courage.

i believe that your foundation is made of stronger stuff than you think. maybe by facing the reality of who is culpable for what happened to you will uncover the REAL foundation that is surviving.

[Tangled Web]

Thank you mosiac. I hope I can uncover a REAL foundation too. It would be nice to know that it all isn't going crumble beneath me!

[Unity]

I think i can relate to this kind of dilema, not sure it's exactly the same.

Usually well a bit like what you say i never saw myself as a victim, i'm alive, and i don't think i'm specially weak of vulnerable in general, but in fact it started to move a bit in my mind in fact when i have read the book milenium.

Well it's a bit already trash story, but there is a scene that struck me is at some point there is some police reccord or witness that say she has been seen drinking with older stranger in the street, or having all kind of weird behavior, it totally blew me off to a degree idk, or that some behavior i was having was not totally normal in some degree, involved lot of avoidance, denial, blocks and many unhealthy things, and well in a way all those things are still remaining of past aggression, and can still be seen as a victim behavior, or post victim behavior, or ex victim, which is you would not be a victim of this anymore now, but still carry some traits linked to the result of this aggression which is being in 'post traumatic' more than really a victim.

The sense of powerlessness or vulnerability that is associated with the concept of victim implying you could be powerless again further attempt of this kind of aggression is probably what is disturbing with saying to be a victim.

I don't remember who said The most effective mesures in war come from survivors. Maybe some asian general.

[cew]

So new here. I never thought of myself as a victim. Part of the survival mechanism was denial of, dissociation from, all experiences that would indicate I was victimized as a child. 'I' still cannot retrieve those memories. They are sequestered. On a cognitive level, if my T says these things happened to you and they constitute abuse, I can intellectually understand that and allow that a child was victimized. But to identify with the term 'victim' would require having feelings about what happened. That's too much to take.