general dx question?

[nats]

we have a family member (no details for the sake of anonymity) who frustrates us a lot e.g. s/he does very mean and hateful things and when confronted seems completely unaware/dismissive and strongly defends their innocence. we weren't raised together but we're increasingly wondering whether a borderline and/or dissociative (tho probably not DID) dx would explain all these behaviours. since we're not a T, we'd value anyone's thoughts/experiences of borderline diagnoses alone or combined with a dissociative dx. thanks!

[mosaic]

that's interesting. i knew of a dr (i think he was a psychologist but im not sure) who maintained that all people with DID are also borderline. i disagree with him of course.

my understanding of borderline is not thorough but it seems the hallmark of borderline is an all or nothing view of life and relationships. you are their best friend or you are abhorred by them... they love you, then they hate you. there's a lot more to a borderline diagnosis than that...

what you are describing does not sound like borderline to me. it could be some sort of dissociative thing, or it could be simple denial of their actions.

[nats]

thanks mosaic. this is the crux of it - is it intentional lying or is it unknowing, in which case i'd have more sympathy.

i understand borderline as feeling emotions very strongly and being ruled by them, so heightened sensitivity to emotions and lack of ability to moderate them - e.g. getting angry and so wanting to physically injure the person or feeling sad and wanting to die etc. my understanding is very superficial though so may be wrong.

[The People]

Our understanding of this is that people with BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) have trouble coping with emotions. We had a T that commented on this re us. She doesn't think we all have it but that the teenagers have symptoms. We agree with that. I think many people with BPD get stuck in their teens. Many were abused, either SA or in other ways. Anxiety is a big issue for them. Recently my PDoc said that they are now looking at BPD as something similar to Bi-polar which makes sense. Many of us here received the BPD dx prior to DID.

[nats]

thanks People. that's how we understood it, but you explained it better.

this person is seeing a T and chose to be quite offended that we asked whether this might be something they experienced. sigh...

[Cammy]

Sounds like there's a bit of narcissistic personality disorder in the mix. For everyone's sake, I hope not since it cannot be fixed.

Just an addendum: I've had a lot of experience with NPD's, unfortunately. One salient feature that they all share is that they are always right and everyone else is wrong. They will defend their innocence like crazy, which is what the person you described does and why it caught my attention. Unfortunately, as you know, with so many of the personality disorders, they often coexist with other disorders or mental health issues, so trying to feather out a diagnosis from a brief description is terribly difficult. It does sound like it may be time for this person to go in for some professional testing - the sooner an individual finds out what their diagnosis is, the better chance they have of becoming more functional. Try to tell them that though - not so easy.

[nats]

hi Cammy, good possibility, at least wouldn't shock us if that were the case. not much we can do either way anyway. if T's ever start to describe narcissism as a spectrum rather than 'OK/lost cause' duality, we'd be totally onboard with that as it corresponds most closely with what we've observed. oh well!

so far, their T has diagnosed them with anxiety (which would be a good guess in 90% of those with a trauma background, even without meeting them).

[Cammy]

nats: As far as I can tell almost 100% of people today have some degree of anxiety or anxiety disorder, so as a therapist diagnosing patients with "anxiety" is a safe bet in terms of being right.

[nats]

yes, that's what we thought too . we're trying not to judge the T based on secondhand information but seriously...

[The People]

Nats if you look in the DSM (it is on line) you will see that NPDs often have a high degree of anxiety. Most often actually. Underneath the narcissism there is a great deal of insecurity. I have worked with some, both as clients in a non-t role, and also as a co-worker. It can be tough. They truly don't understand why you don't see the world from their perspective. I believe that some of them can change to a degree if there is enough intelligence.

Is the person actually forgetting what they have said or done or is it a defense mechanism. I don't see that as part of an NPD. Don't remember learning that it is an aspect of their condition.

[nats]

hi People, interesting. will have a look.

our question is whether they are forgetting or whether they are lying, as there is no way to know which. instinct says they are probably lying, but if so, they are quite convincing and seem able to convince themselves as well.

we always assumed NPDs presented themselves as very capable and impressive, which isn't the case with this person, who hasn't tried to accomplish much in life. which is why narcissistic tendencies of some kind might make more sense than full NPD.

[The People]

They may have 3-4different conditions and DID may not have come up yet.

Almost all of my siblings don't believe anything I say about my parents. SA aside they don't even remember his friendship with alcohol. This confused me for many years. How could they just forget that? But they did. The one sister that I have contact with has created an imaginary relationship with the mother (that is a long story) and if I bring things up I can tell she doesn't believe me. So I don't talk about them anymore. Are they lying? No, I now believe that the lack of support they received forced them to block out anything from our miserable past. None of the Ts I have worked with doubt my memories. I don't either most of the time. Occasionally I will hide inside myself and pretend they don't exist. It is a difficult thing to deal with.