comment on forgiveness..

[nats]

what do you think?:

"Forgiveness is not saying, “What you did to me is okay.” It is saying, “I’m not going to let what you did to me ruin my happiness forever.” "

[tweeter]

It sounds good, but not to me. The person who hurt or offended might take that as a challenge, like a red cloth in front of a bull. This can be very subtle.

It brings to mind my old way of dealing with people who tried to fool me into agreeing to something they wanted, but which would not be good for me, and they knew it.
So, I told the person very politely that I was wise to him and to please stop treating me that way. The behaviors did not cease. In fact, there was escalation, and situations like that can become aggressive.

To back up some... Your first comment about forgiveness is right on the money.
Forgiveness comes in more than one flavor, and is always conditional.
Or, not even remorse will result in it, if the apology was solely manipulative, or a prelude to further incidents.
In fact, forgiveness might be conditional not only re an absence of repetition, but also on making amends (for instance, to admit lying and destroying another person's credibility and reputation, etc.).

There can be situations in which a person can't escape from whatever brings new abusive and lying people into a life. My experience has been that no matter what I do, I am thwarted. I have examined my choices, assessed my failings. But, there has been too much sabotage coming from outside sources way beyond the origin, and yet related in nature to it.
At this point, I've given up. There is light within me that is beautiful. As far as being in the world, I'm finished due to illness, and that's a long story. I have no forgiveness for the people who have done me in as they have, or made me look bad to enhance themselves, and either turned their backs or just never stop. Goes beyond abuse.

Anyhow, never cue your opponent as to your intent, especially if it challenges. To speak to yourself like that re abusers, sounds positive. But, there's too much emotional energy spent on what seems to me a kind of defensiveness that should not be at the forefront. Rather than thinking "You can't stop me!", I would envision a "Yes" to your being, without thought otherwise.

tweeter

[Tangled Web]

(04-28-2014, 03:28 AM)nats Wrote: what do you think?:

"Forgiveness is not saying, “What you did to me is okay.” It is saying, “I’m not going to let what you did to me ruin my happiness forever.” "

Forgiveness is not saying, “What you did to me is okay.” It is saying, “I’m not going to let what you did to me ruin my happiness forever.” "

I completely agree with this statement!
I have a tool that was given to me by an old T regarding forgiveness……..
It says-
Forgiveness IS……
Optional
A way to release resentments and let go of the past
A gift we give ourselves
An act that makes no demands
An attitude and framework for action
A process that takes time
A decision that rests with US
Forgiveness is NOT……..
Something you have to do
The same for everyone
Granting pardon
Excusing
Condoning
Reconciliation
A “snap” decision
A decision that depends on someone else.
There are steps to forgiveness and it is a process. Every step in the process of forgiveness requires your consent…….
Step 1-Identify the wrongdoing
Step 2- Identify what you want to forgive
Step 3- The ritual of forgiving
Step 4-Moving forward
Author unknown.

I don’t think forgiveness is conditional. I think it should be solely based on you and your own experiences and feelings around the situation. There are no ultimatums or choices you give the person you are choosing to forgive. It should be based entirely on you and what you need. IMO
Forgiveness is not saying, “What you did to me is okay.” It is saying, “I’m not going to let what you did to me ruin my happiness forever.” "

I completely agree with this statement! This is a perfect of example of taking YOUR own power back and NOT letting them ruin your life forever.

[Downtherabbithole]

Interesting discussion... its left me with a few thoughts to ponder. I hadnt thought bout the forgiveness part I just wanted to be free n to heal from what's been done n start living life. I wasn't thinking I'd never forgive, but to me , in my situation I was responsible for what happened because if my weakness n vulnerability n I had to make it different. Maybe putting responsibility on the person makes me feel even more powerless to change how things are. If its my fault, than I just have to do better next time so it doesn't happen again. If i fail, n things go wrong its not fault of other person its my fault for not being strong enough, i just need fo be stronger next time. Whatever part of me that may have anger towards him or others like him or that would want to fight for justice for me doesn't seem to exist or if they do, they aren't around where can see. It's not been about forgiving him its been about doing better and I guess I never forgave myself if it comes down to it. But again its not been something really thought too much about, don't like to think too much. It's dangerous. But this has left me with something's to think about.

[tweeter]

(05-01-2014, 02:03 PM)Tangled Web Wrote:

(04-28-2014, 03:28 AM)nats Wrote: what do you think?:

"Forgiveness is not saying, “What you did to me is okay.” It is saying, “I’m not going to let what you did to me ruin my happiness forever.” "

Forgiveness is not saying, “What you did to me is okay.” It is saying, “I’m not going to let what you did to me ruin my happiness forever.” "

I completely agree with this statement!
I have a tool that was given to me by an old T regarding forgiveness……..
It says-
Forgiveness IS……
Optional
A way to release resentments and let go of the past
A gift we give ourselves
An act that makes no demands
An attitude and framework for action
A process that takes time
A decision that rests with US
Forgiveness is NOT……..
Something you have to do
The same for everyone
Granting pardon
Excusing
Condoning
Reconciliation
A “snap” decision
A decision that depends on someone else.
There are steps to forgiveness and it is a process. Every step in the process of forgiveness requires your consent…….
Step 1-Identify the wrongdoing
Step 2- Identify what you want to forgive
Step 3- The ritual of forgiving
Step 4-Moving forward
Author unknown.

I don’t think forgiveness is conditional. I think it should be solely based on you and your own experiences and feelings around the situation. There are no ultimatums or choices you give the person you are choosing to forgive. It should be based entirely on you and what you need. IMO
Forgiveness is not saying, “What you did to me is okay.” It is saying, “I’m not going to let what you did to me ruin my happiness forever.” "

I completely agree with this statement! This is a perfect of example of taking YOUR own power back and NOT letting them ruin your life forever.

Tangled, I have not concentrated on forgiveness as you have. It's not one of my areas of highest concern. It does not become an issue at this point unless I am unwilling to forgive. In fact, that is about the only time I think about it. If the person is still alive, I require distance, and might tend to avoid. I'm not a vengeful person. I don't want them to get theirs and so forth. I just need to stay away in order to take care of myself. I make that clear too. That might not make a life situation easy, but I know where I stand and take responsibility.

There are kinds/degrees of forgiveness and I have no difficulty with that. For me, forgiveness, especially that which is deeply felt and complete, is conditional on the person understanding what he or she has done (for instance that it was harmful to someone and that this cannot be rationalized away), taking personal responsibility for the deeds, and indicating that like or similar mistreatment will not be repeated or become habitual. Making amends might be included.

"I don’t think forgiveness is conditional. I think it should be solely based on you and your own experiences and feelings around the situation. There are no ultimatums or choices you give the person you are choosing to forgive. It should be based entirely on you and what you need. IMO"
What purpose do you think the conditions for forgiveness serve? I'm not talking about tit for tat. It's based on what I need. Those needs are not negotiable under serious circumstances. It's not an ultimatum. It has to do with my emotional and/or physical safety.

Do I want to forgive a person? Why? Give it time to unfold. If my immediate feeling is not to forgive, I don't waste energy mulling it over, unless something occurs to reopen the file. If it is, fine. Then I assess the basis and relevant conditions of a particular situation.

I consider a pardon a sort of forgiveness, and, in fact, am going to give that gesture in the near future because I judge this to be right for all concerned, and I still hope never to have contact again. Your post helped me to figure out that mess, and I'm grateful. Even in disagreement, progress can be made.

I can agree to disagree.
tweeter

[Tangled Web]

What purpose do you think the conditions for forgiveness serve? I'm not talking about tit for tat. It's based on what I need. Those needs are not negotiable under serious circumstances. It's not an ultimatum. It has to do with my emotional and/or physical safety.

Hi Tweeter. I am not sure I understand your question the way it was intended so I am just going to answer by my own interpretation. I think I understand what you are asking now……
I don’t think conditions on forgiveness has a purpose. I think forgiveness is solely based on the person doing the forgiving. I agree it is based on your own needs. Conditions might be placed on the relationship you have the person whether or not you choose to keep them in your life or at what level they are involved in your life. I am not talking about tit for tat either, that to me is a game people play and isn’t useful. I guess for me forgiveness is setting yourself free from all things attached to whatever you have to forgive, that includes your feelings. For instance, I once had this best friend. We are no longer friends. I had a lot of things to process regarding our friendship and the falling out that happened. Now she is just a person who lives in the same world I do. I do not wish her ill will anymore or hate her. She means nothing to me. Now I am talking in the singular here, there are others that feel much differently inside. But that is what I think forgiveness is and conditions have no place there. That forgiveness wasn’t based on anything to do with her. It didn’t depend on whether or not she did it again. It didn’t depend on her changing anything about herself. It depended on me and my feelings and what I wanted to do about it.
I agree we can agree to disagree. I liked the conversation. Thanks 

[tweeter]

Tangled, your returning with further clarification is much appreciated. We might not agree, but I like the way this turned out, pretty much because we took each other seriously and were kind in attitude. Doesn't get much better than that.
tweeter

[Tangled Web]

[Unity]

Forgiving can be one step toward peace of mind through universal acceptation of everything that be. Mercy is a pillar of the exercise of justice :p Forgiving to me has lot to do with clearing blocks that prevent feeling positive emotion toward a person, or category of person based on past experience.

[The People]

For me forgiveness is putting aside the anger and hatred. However, it does not mean I will allow you to have the opportunity to hurt me again. Whether it is a FM (including SO) who hurts me or someone who steals from me I will not be in the position to let this happen again.

Years ago I read a book that says "when forgiveness doesn't make sense." The example they used was a man who looked after the books was caught stealing. He sought forgiveness and was given it but the church did not give him the accounting job back.

My family hurt me in every way possible. I did the anger thing, let it go, it comes back and I let it go again (normal under the circumstances.) What I do for the most part is say "it is not in my hands". I do not wish them ill will. In fact I wish them well. They hate me but so be it. In the end I choose to stay away from them so that they cannot hurt me again.

[nats]

Yes, forgiveness means letting it go so that it no longer eats at you; it does not mean allowing them further opportunity to re-injure you. Forgiveness is different from forgetting...

[Unity]

Anger and hatred can maybe make one safer in case of imminent threat, but not sure it really help in preventing future issues, unless you don't have other mean to express or communicate this fear, and beside this, negative emotions mostly hurt yourself more than anything else.

It was easier for me to understand the concept of forgiveness through budhism, with the idea that lucidity in contemplation can be disturbed by presence of past karma, and need for control on events resulting from fear of a past event reproducing. Releasing  this need for control which often come from a feeling of insecurity based on past events can be usefull in some stage to attain zen.

Forgiveness is somehow tied to the concept of karma in hinduism/budhism, and how to become free from the chain of karma. Which involve preventing the mind to construct a casual analysis of the present based on memories and past event, which is triggered by anxiety often, and that some mecanism of the mind can be triggered into action automatically which prevent the zen state of maximum attention of the present like it is at the moment you perceive it, rather than tainted by lot of memory that add stress or anxiety to the perception where it's just based on some automatic reaction of the mind due to past event that can be unrelated to the present situation.

In egyptian mythology, having heavy hearth mean being in bad health due to inability to process past event, or having hearth burdened by past events, which can have also physiological effect, and being light hearthed is similar to a feeling of innocence, and when the person is fully alive in the present with maximum intensity.

Anger and hatred will more in the absolute lead to isolation or retreat from the environment, rather than being fully present in it.

[Unity]

JUST LET ME LOVE
If I choose to see the good in others, if I choose to see the bright side of every situation, if I choose to live my life without fear, please don't feel the need to "wake me up" to reality.
Trust me, I am aware of all the negativity in the world, of all the injustices, of all the atrocities. Yes, i am aware of all the horrible things that could happen.
Just because I refuse to pass judgment, just because i choose not to make them my focus does not mean that I am naive or simple minded.
It means that I have chosen to live from love.
Just let me love,