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RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - tweeter - 10-19-2012
(10-19-2012, 10:34 AM)tweeter Wrote:(10-11-2012, 11:33 AM)MakersDozn Wrote: Hi TW and anyone else reading,
It's not the children who feel the loss. It's me and the other adults inside.
We're the ones with the problem. Not them.
I can't nurture myself if I was never nurtured. There's a giant abyss within me, a giant hole where all the received nurturing, the bonding, the feeling of safety and security and inner strength ought to be. How can we give ourselves something that we never received?
We're sad and angry and lost.
Thank you,
Charity
I don't claim to share the totality of experiences covered in this fine thread. I have some input and encouragement to give.
The expression of nurturing is dependent on both the nature of the person and the care, or lack thereof, received as a child. I wasn't loved or nurtured by anyone, except for my grandfather who passed when I was 4. I don't know what would have happened to me without his gentleness, but even he folded in f**r of my mother, who was cr*zy.
I had to learn how to nurture myself. I think I did a decent job. However, her vicious hypercritical influence has been hard to displace, as this was what replaced nurturing in her nature. I not only have acted that way against myself, but with people I care about. I finally reached a point where I had to stop it, because I loved someone that much (who won't talk to me for any one of number of reasons I've given up counting).
I replaced this acidic trait with "Be Kind." I got that from a movie, "Holy Smoke," which launched my late-life transformation.
Before then, I saw examples of good parenting in a friend and tried to internalize what was going on. It didn't work. As I discovered years later, what I got out of it was that I felt almost jealous that I hadn't been treated well as a child. That feeling completely surfaced much later in life.
I can love, but nurturing and comforting are kind of foreign to me, and take immense effort. It's hard for me to connect that way. Everything we do is to some degree driven by a feedback mechanism.
I have something else to say, but want to post this now because I lose posts easily. If my email didn't have a save feature, I'd be out of luck. It's like I'm typing, the letters can move to different lines or I lose the page altogether.
be right back,
tweeter
Hi Charity. Part two of my post comes as a surprise to me. As you know, I moved back to the apt. building where I spent the bulk of my miserable childhood. I feel ill much all of the time, and the building has slid in quality. But, I'm glad I came here. It's filled with immigrants, many Russians, Poles and others. Sometimes I feel like I'm living in Little Russia. I'm part Russian, but don't know the language.
The quality of parenting here runs the gamut. Two kids have gotten thru to me. One is a highly intelligent and sensitive boy of about 10 or 11; the other is a little girl, around 2, who tears down the hall happily babbling in a combination of Russian and English that even her mother can't fathom. I know the girl has wonderful parents whom I hope to befriend. I think I've seen the boy's grandmother. I don't know his parents. I would say he comes from good household where respect and heart are valued.
It's hard for me to express and I know I haven't finished processing. A work in progress. Two things are happening. The nurturing the children are receiving is getting thru to me via how they treat me. Also, the joy, the seriousness (in the case of the boy) and almost wise friendliness of these youngsters has brought me back to how I was as a very young child. I was like them. Every time I see them, this is reinforced.
My relationship with them is adult - child. How they treat me makes me wish to relate to them as a loving older female person, rather than as a pal (which in the past, was the only bond I could feel with a child). It's kind of backwards, but I'm learning what I can of the nurturing nature in myself thru very much loved children, in housing where things didn't go too well for me, where I took cover to survive.
I'm not saying I'm becoming an earth mother type, cause that isn't my nature, but I am becoming what I should have been. That lacking you speak of, which I didn't feel equivalently to what you express, well, that uneasiness is going away. I have a happiness inside of me instead. I can't wait to see the kids and the dogs and whatever.
This is happening even as I can't seem to end the cycle of lack of respect, abuse or indifference I continue to receive in this world, which has escalated in recent years.
In terms of my reaction to that, I'd say I tend to think more before delivering a verbal barb. I'm not just curbing myself though. I don't want to do that, even if they hurt me. I'll stand up for myself and shut the other person down if I'm tread upon, but it's different in practice and emotion from before. I did it on Wed. with a doc because she was out of line. (I guess I'll have more bad press.) I feel better, experiencing a degree of emotional self-nurturing, which is beginning to extend outward as well (including a certain aggressiveness that I gratefully accept in myself). I delete the imprinted hypercritical element, which was of no constructive use, and made me miserable).
hope this makes sense,
tweeter
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - MakersDozn - 10-19-2012
Hi tweeter,
Thank you for replying. Twice.
I appreciate what you wrote. I'm going to look at it again later so that I can give you a better reply.
Take care,
Charity
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - Deborah of DDDs - 10-20-2012
Thank you, MDs, for writing about this. You said:
So on a certain level we continue to experience life from the emotional perspective of an emotionally neglected, very young child.
I have this too.
Thanks to Mosaic, Emma19 & Orek for writing about the healing process. I have been with the same t for 8 years I think and still feel ashamed that I want her to like me. Sometimes I believe that she does but I don't entirely know what to do with it.
Anyway, I appreciate sharing the struggle with someone else.
Deborah & Debbies of DDDs
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - MakersDozn - 10-20-2012
tweeter,
I'm glad that being around those two neighbor children, and other positive people in your building, has been good for you. And I like the motto "Be Kind." It's sad, though, that in my/our experience of trying to be kind, we've been hurt by others.
Deborah and Debbies,
Thank you for letting me know that you understand how I feel. We too have been with our current T for eight years. And sometimes, in some ways, it feels like we're just beginning.
Take care,
Charity
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - tweeter - 10-20-2012
(10-20-2012, 12:58 PM)MakersDozn Wrote: tweeter,
I'm glad that being around those two neighbor children, and other positive people in your building, has been good for you. And I like the motto "Be Kind." It's sad, though, that in my/our experience of trying to be kind, we've been hurt by others.
That has happened to me too, especially when it applied to fm.
Some things to keep in mind:
1. The self/selves are included in this directive to be kind, or merciful.
2. Being kind does not always involve sacrifice.
It might seem so, and sometimes a decision is made to give up something very important. If it's like that all the time, or there's nothing left for you (especially if that wasn't part of the deal), there's something off. Then there has been a lack of self-kindness, which can lead to or derive from a relationship in which there is emotional ab*s*.
3. Consideration for one's own well-being is never ignored.
A problem that is prevalent currently is constant crisis in the global environment (and that idiotic austerity solution, proven not to work properly). A person or group can become conditioned to give up too much because of a number of reasons. It can be a way to substract people in a way that might be made to sound humane, when the responsibility is one of the whole (i.e., allowing and participating in greed, for instance).
4. "Being Kind" is a state of mind independent of any situation.
It has taken me a long time for me to feel this. It takes effort, but once you know it for what it is, you can find it again. It is not a weak position unless one becomes imbalanced, or not in tune with the situation being dealt with. This doesn't work to anyone's advantage.
5. There are times when there is no kindness owed to the other party(ies).
Even then, it is my opinion that care needs to be taken to avoid pure vengeance. But, that's my way. I must accept that there are places and times for all extremities, but these cannot be allowed to become the norm or life becomes war.
When there are a number of internal divisions (personalities) and the past which gives rise to them, the above judgment might not work so well. There are polarities of kindness, and what comes from rage, that are very immediate and emotionally current. The challenge to find the state of mind I'm speaking of, but cannot define even for myself, probably won't be possible for all of the internal family. The feelings of each one are valid.
I'm going off over my head.
If an ab*s* background is sufficiently severe, maybe the Extreme exists internally to such a degree that the normal development of "Be Kind," which I feel begins as a childlike, innocent offering, a giving without boundary, doesn't develop beyond that at all, or consistently enough to give an expectation of security and safety.
In fact, I don't think an ab*s* background needs to have occurred for this to occur. It can be a form of insufficient socialization, which has been my problem.
As the person grows, I have realized that "Be Kind" involves not only the offering, but a judgment as to what is Kind in the particular situation. It's not all that easy, because it becomes a matter of what I'll call "emotional justice." That's a mine field.
I'm going by feel in my life, trying to slow things down so that I can think on my feet, rather than blurt out barbs. That's not to say I don't tell people off. The difference is I can balance being kind with that, and I don't feel awful afterwards, regretting that I said whatever. It's a relief.
The wheels are getting stuck in the road now. I hope that what I've been able to express is helpful, even if I couldn't conclude more constructively, like solve the whole thing.
your friend,
tweeter
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - nats - 10-21-2012
hi tweeter, i think what you're saying here is extremely valid and important for all of us. it may not directly help Charity's struggles, but the balance between kindness (i.e. compassion) without unintentionally sacrificing yourself/ves and staying true to self/ves - e.g. some kind of emotional equity or ethics - is probably what allows us to be properly human.
we definitely don't have the balance right but can sometimes see the goal.
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - tweeter - 10-21-2012
(10-21-2012, 04:19 AM)nats Wrote: hi tweeter, i think what you're saying here is extremely valid and important for all of us. it may not directly help Charity's struggles, but the balance between kindness (i.e. compassion) without unintentionally sacrificing yourself/ves and staying true to self/ves - e.g. some kind of emotional equity or ethics - is probably what allows us to be properly human.
we definitely don't have the balance right but can sometimes see the goal.
Thank you, nats.
Being "properly human" is an art with variations.
I used to fixate on the Shakespearean line, "To thine own self be true." I don't anymore, since I straightened it out -- what I am, what I would have liked to Be, and what was/is expected from me by authority figures (old and new).
The quote was replaced by humor, at first:
"Be yourself. Everyone else is taken."
And then,
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." (Voltaire)
Seeing self(ves) thru the eyes of another happens with parent and child, as well as in other situations. But, a fundamental cornerstone of how we first feel about ourselves comes from that primary interaction. If it is sufficiently destructive (absent or ab*s*ve), I can see how there could be a need to replace the mother figure (to feel loved and nurtured as one should have been from the beginning) even when older.
I haven't experienced that emotional vacant hole in the heart as described, possibly because I was able to absorb that more easily elsewhere to a degree. But there was continued insufficiency in other areas: nurturing myself and others (outside of hygiene, which my mother excelled at); not feeling worthy of success and allowing others to destroy it (which mother also excelled at). I'm working on repairing, because I have to win back something I lost.
Being an unloved and unwanted child has side effects.
tweets
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - MakersDozn - 10-21-2012
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: Some things to keep in mind:
1. The self/selves are included in this directive to be kind, or merciful.
From various: Sometimes it's hard to remember this. It's a lot easier to treat others better than how we feel we deserve to be treated. Sometimes we have to think to ourselves "would you treat [insert loved one's name here] as harshly as you're treating yourself?" Of course, the answer is "No." And that reminds us that we shouldn't treat ourselves poorly. Until the next time we have to be reminded.
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: 2. Being kind does not always involve sacrifice.
It might seem so, and sometimes a decision is made to give up something very important. If it's like that all the time, or there's nothing left for you (especially if that wasn't part of the deal), there's something off. Then there has been a lack of self-kindness, which can lead to or derive from a relationship in which there is emotional ab*s*.
3. Consideration for one's own well-being is never ignored.
From Charity: This has been very difficult for me to learn, mainly because my sense of self has always been based on trying to follow an SP model that's rooted in self-sacrifice. [spoiler='CHR/RC content']In CHR/RC belief, Mary is presented as being meek, and it's easy to interpret the story of her life as being one of self-sacrifice. [/spoiler]
I've gone a bit overboard in interpreting this belief system, apparently, and our T has reminded me that even the most ardent followers of this SP belief system don't interpret it as a command to be kind to others at one's own expense. That's a difficult lesson for me to learn; my own misinterpretation is so strongly ingrained within me that I'm afraid to let it go.
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: 4. "Being Kind" is a state of mind independent of any situation.
It has taken me a long time for me to feel this. It takes effort, but once you know it for what it is, you can find it again. It is not a weak position unless one becomes imbalanced, or not in tune with the situation being dealt with. This doesn't work to anyone's advantage.
From various: Yes, it's very easy to lose our sense of perspective and end up having things out-of-balance.
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: 5. There are times when there is no kindness owed to the other party(ies).
Even then, it is my opinion that care needs to be taken to avoid pure vengeance. But, that's my way. I must accept that there are places and times for all extremities, but these cannot be allowed to become the norm or life becomes war.
From Laura, other protectors, and angry ones: The desire for vengeance....well, it's not easy to avoid. Sometimes the anger within is so visceral and volcanic that our only choices are hurting others (and in the end, hurting ourselves), or suppressing this anger (and eventually also hurting ourselves by having to keep unprocessed anger inside). It's hard to not want to get rid of one's own hurt by hurting somenone else. So we keep the hurt inside, and we end up suffering for it.
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: When there are a number of internal divisions (personalities) and the past which gives rise to them, the above judgment might not work so well. There are polarities of kindness, and what comes from rage, that are very immediate and emotionally current. The challenge to find the state of mind I'm speaking of, but cannot define even for myself, probably won't be possible for all of the internal family. The feelings of each one are valid.
From various: Polarities of kindness. Yup. At one end there's Charity and Nia and a few others, and at the other end there's....well, we'll leave it up to them to identify themselves.
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: If an ab*s* background is sufficiently severe, maybe the Extreme exists internally to such a degree that the normal development of "Be Kind," which I feel begins as a childlike, innocent offering, a giving without boundary, doesn't develop beyond that at all, or consistently enough to give an expectation of security and safety.
In fact, I don't think an ab*s* background needs to have occurred for this to occur. It can be a form of insufficient socialization, which has been my problem.
From Laura: Well, we don't remember specific abuse from our pre-school years, although we are convinced that some abuse did happen. What we do know is that our socialization sucked. We were indescribably unready to go to nursery school when we were three and a half. It felt much safer to be at home, playing by ourselves.
If our parents had had an inkling of how important it was to (1) spend time nurturing us one-on-one, and (2) spend time in small, low-pressure social situations with our parents and one or two of their friends (and one or two of their friends' children), it would have made a world of difference in our development to be ready for preschool.
But we don't remember our parents having many friends. They certainly never had anyone over to the house, and they rarely took us anywhere for purely social purposes. So we began preschool at three and a half, and without any prior socialization, preschool scared the sh*t out of us.
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: As the person grows, I have realized that "Be Kind" involves not only the offering, but a judgment as to what is Kind in the particular situation. It's not all that easy, because it becomes a matter of what I'll call "emotional justice." That's a mine field.
From various: What is Kind in a particular situation....True, but we're struggling so much with the meaning of Basic Kindness that we're not ready to study Advanced Kindness yet.
Thanks for giving us something to think about.
Various MDs
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - MakersDozn - 10-21-2012
(10-21-2012, 04:19 AM)nats Wrote: the balance between kindness (i.e. compassion) without unintentionally sacrificing yourself/ves and staying true to self/ves - e.g. some kind of emotional equity or ethics - is probably what allows us to be properly human.
In a nutshell, yes. Thanks, nats.
MDs
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - MakersDozn - 10-21-2012
(10-21-2012, 02:59 PM)tweeter Wrote: The quote was replaced by humor, at first:
"Be yourself. Everyone else is taken."
Well-said.
![[Image: AG.gif]](http://www.mosaicminds.org/forums/images/icons/mm/AG.gif){kind=icon}
(10-21-2012, 02:59 PM)tweeter Wrote: Being an unloved and unwanted child has side effects.
The world's biggest understatement.
MDs
RE: Grieving a Lost Childhood - tweeter - 10-27-2012
(10-21-2012, 04:22 PM)MakersDozn Wrote:(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: Some things to keep in mind:
1. The self/selves are included in this directive to be kind, or merciful.
From various: Sometimes it's hard to remember this. It's a lot easier to treat others better than how we feel we deserve to be treated. Sometimes we have to think to ourselves "would you treat [insert loved one's name here] as harshly as you're treating yourself?" Of course, the answer is "No." And that reminds us that we shouldn't treat ourselves poorly. Until the next time we have to be reminded.
My response has been different, and that's one reason why the behavior has persisted with such tenacity. First of all, the "phrase deserve to be treated," doesn't enter into my equation at all. With me, it's a rather a matter of trying to do what's right sometimes forgetting about me somewhere along the line, as I assume that the other person on finding his own good with my help, will be kind to me.
Indeed, I have treated myself as harshly as I have corrected someone I care about very much. That's part of what made it all right. I made no distinction. The standard was the same, and I didn't mean to be cruel in telling it as it was and so forth. There are better ways of doing that, and there is also the wisdom of knowing when it will do no good and all would be better off if I did nothing. In fact, the best thing for all (and especially for taking care of self) might be to back off, and maybe make that permanent, if the person is just using the given critique or support in a way opposite to that intended. The harshness is counterproductive. Sometimes self(ves) need room to live, as do other people.
tweeter
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: 2. Being kind does not always involve sacrifice.
It might seem so, and sometimes a decision is made to give up something very important. If it's like that all the time, or there's nothing left for you (especially if that wasn't part of the deal), there's something off. Then there has been a lack of self-kindness, which can lead to or derive from a relationship in which there is emotional ab*s*.
3. Consideration for one's own well-being is never ignored.
From Charity: This has been very difficult for me to learn, mainly because my sense of self has always been based on trying to follow an SP model that's rooted in self-sacrifice. (CHR/RC content) I've gone a bit overboard in interpreting this belief system, apparently, and our T has reminded me that even the most ardent followers of this SP belief system don't interpret it as a command to be kind to others at one's own expense. That's a difficult lesson for me to learn; my own misinterpretation is so strongly ingrained within me that I'm afraid to let it go.
This is not part of my experience, but I've seen it depicted and can understand how this way can be so compelling. I have no answer for you, other than I would not want this for myself but can see the possibility for such a thing to occur.
tweeter
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: 4. "Being Kind" is a state of mind independent of any situation.
It has taken me a long time for me to feel this. It takes effort, but once you know it for what it is, you can find it again. It is not a weak position unless one becomes imbalanced, or not in tune with the situation being dealt with. This doesn't work to anyone's advantage.
From various: Yes, it's very easy to lose our sense of perspective and end up having things out-of-balance.
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: 5. There are times when there is no kindness owed to the other party(ies).
Even then, it is my opinion that care needs to be taken to avoid pure vengeance. But, that's my way. I must accept that there are places and times for all extremities, but these cannot be allowed to become the norm or life becomes war.
From Laura, other protectors, and angry ones: The desire for vengeance....well, it's not easy to avoid. Sometimes the anger within is so visceral and volcanic that our only choices are hurting others (and in the end, hurting ourselves), or suppressing this anger (and eventually also hurting ourselves by having to keep unprocessed anger inside). It's hard to not want to get rid of one's own hurt by hurting somenone else. So we keep the hurt inside, and we end up suffering for it.
This is complicated stuff for me. I don't generally want to hurt in return. I would rather go my own way and succeed, which can be a kind of pay back too.
But, somehow, in important instances the success doesn't happen. I got into that in my introject thread, and part had to with with an ab*s*er's intent to sabotage my success (take it away from me, claim it, or destroy its potential), or for me to internalize that other person's destructive feelings towards myself....
The dynamics of my being helpless, allowing this to happen, is where much of my hurt has come from.
It's been bad in situation with fm, because I rarely can show anger, or else I'm at risk from him. I mean he pulled something on me today, but I caught him because I expected it as I can read him like a book. I didn't get mad, but he won't let up until I do, and land in a crying heap alone (and need whatever is on the block, which is for him for me to hate where I am and move to Calif to a condo he would buy, so that he and his bf could crash there when they wanted the beach in an area I would not live, and not like that.). Yup, the offer was made.
I know that something you said and what happened today set me off here, but the connection is not clear to me.
tweeter
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: When there are a number of internal divisions (personalities) and the past which gives rise to them, the above judgment might not work so well. There are polarities of kindness, and what comes from rage, that are very immediate and emotionally current. The challenge to find the state of mind I'm speaking of, but cannot define even for myself, probably won't be possible for all of the internal family. The feelings of each one are valid.
From various: Polarities of kindness. Yup. At one end there's Charity and Nia and a few others, and at the other end there's....well, we'll leave it up to them to identify themselves.
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: If an ab*s* background is sufficiently severe, maybe the Extreme exists internally to such a degree that the normal development of "Be Kind," which I feel begins as a childlike, innocent offering, a giving without boundary, doesn't develop beyond that at all, or consistently enough to give an expectation of security and safety.
In fact, I don't think an ab*s* background needs to have occurred for this to occur. It can be a form of insufficient socialization, which has been my problem.
From Laura: Well, we don't remember specific abuse from our pre-school years, although we are convinced that some abuse did happen. What we do know is that our socialization sucked. We were indescribably unready to go to nursery school when we were three and a half. It felt much safer to be at home, playing by ourselves.
If our parents had had an inkling of how important it was to (1) spend time nurturing us one-on-one, and (2) spend time in small, low-pressure social situations with our parents and one or two of their friends (and one or two of their friends' children), it would have made a world of difference in our development to be ready for preschool.
But we don't remember our parents having many friends. They certainly never had anyone over to the house, and they rarely took us anywhere for purely social purposes. So we began preschool at three and a half, and without any prior socialization, preschool scared the sh*t out of us.
Parents had no social life at home and very limited outside of it. I wasn't scared of kindergarten or nursery school, but was very bored by the former and couldn't relate to the kids or situation. All the hand clapping and giggling wasn't me and still isn't. I looked at nursery school, was totally disinterested and didn't attend. Maybe I was too smart, but I might add that I didn't know how to be a kid.
tweeter
(10-20-2012, 04:06 PM)tweeter Wrote: As the person grows, I have realized that "Be Kind" involves not only the offering, but a judgment as to what is Kind in the particular situation. It's not all that easy, because it becomes a matter of what I'll call "emotional justice." That's a mine field.
From various: What is Kind in a particular situation....True, but we're struggling so much with the meaning of Basic Kindness that we're not ready to study Advanced Kindness yet.
Thanks for giving us something to think about.
Various MDs
![[+]](/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
SpoilerThank you too, as always.
tweeter